HUMAN RIGHTS COMMITTEE CONTINUES CONSIDERING GUATEMALA'S INITIAL REPORT

28 March 1996

Press Release
HR/CT/463

HUMAN RIGHTS COMMITTEE CONTINUES CONSIDERING GUATEMALA'S INITIAL REPORT

19960328 Rights of Indigenous Peoples, Impunity, Poverty, Street Children among Issues Discussed

The need to protect the rights of the indigenous peoples in Guatemala, address the problem of impunity, and deal with the problems of poverty and street children were among the issues stressed this morning, as the Human Rights Committee continued its consideration that country's initial report on its compliance with the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights. The expert from Australia inquired about the role of land-ownership disputes in the conflict in Guatemala, while the expert from India wanted to know if foreigners could enforce their rights in the courts. Were citizens informed of their Covenant rights? the expert from Egypt asked. Was a national children's home being considered to deal with the problem of street children? the expert from Jamaica inquired. What protections were there for civilian authorities dealing with military cases? the expert from France asked. Although its report stated that no women or children had been executed in Guatemala, "we know they were", although not under the law, the expert from Mauritius said. The expert from the United Kingdom asked about the exhumation of the bodies of people killed a few years ago. The expert from Costa Rica asked whether opposition to public abuses was considered legitimate when carried out by armed force. Responding to questions raised by Committee members to date, Vincent Arranz Sanz, Chairman of the Presidential Human Rights Committee of Guatemala, said no one could defend the death of street urchins, the massacres of 1982, the grinding poverty, and the lack of education and drinking water. Policies must now be enacted to address those problems in the shortest possible time. Guatemala was heading down the right road, he said. The Government was committed to the process of cleansing the security forces, both civilian and military. It sought to effect the transformation of profoundly rooted attitudes of confrontation and begin a process of nation-wide reconciliation. That difficult job would require economic and social development, since poverty was an obvious breeding ground for violence. Also speaking for Guatemala was Dennis Alonzo Mazariegos, Executive Director of the Presidential Committee, who discussed legal aspects of implementation of the Covenant. The Human Rights Committee will meet again at 3 p.m. today, to conclude its consideration of Guatemala's initial report.

Committee Work Programme

The Human Rights Committee met this morning to continue consideration of the initial report of Guatemala on measures taken to implement the provisions of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (document CCPR/C/81/Add.7). (For background information on the report, see Press Release HR/CT/459.)

Questions by Experts

ELIZABETH EVATT, expert from Australia, sought information on matters related to the indigenous lands, including what proportion of land remained with them. To what extent had disputes over land ownership had been a factor in the conflict in Guatemala and in matters related to the restoration of democracy in the country? Was the land issue seen as an important factor in restoring peace? Less than half of registered voters had taken part in the last election, she said, asking whether the low turnout reflected a failure of the rural indigenous people to give their support to the rule of law in Guatemala. What was being done to restore the confidence of the indigenous people in the rule of law in Guatemala? She also sought information about massacres which had been performed by the Civil Self-Defence Patrols (PACs). Had any of the Patrol members been put on trial or convicted? she asked.

PRAFULLACHANDRA NATWARLAL BHAGWATI, expert from India, said attacks by the Patrols on those who had fled and were now returning to the country was a cause for concern. What was the civilian Government doing to prevent that state of affairs? What steps were being taken in order to set right that situation? He also sought information on some apparent contradictions in the Constitution concerning the situation of the Covenant in relation to domestic law. Were foreigners allowed to approach the courts to enforce the rights they had under the Constitution? He also wanted clarification on matters relating to the right of assembly and the length of prior notice required before permission to hold a demonstration was given. On equality of the sexes, what steps were being taken to remove discrimination against women in adultery cases? He also sought clarification on provisions concerning the derogation of rights under situations of emergency.

OMRAN EL-SHAFEI, expert from Egypt, said more information was needed regarding the decree which, it was said, brought the Covenant into force as part of Guatemala's internal law. In examining the Constitution and statutory laws, one did not find explicit mention of rights protected by the Covenant. How were the Covenant protections operating in Guatemala?

According to the report, measures were being taken to inform all those entering Guatemala of their rights under the Covenant, he said. Were citizens also informed of those rights? Further information was needed on how the rules governing conscientious objection to military service were regulated, as

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well as on the Children's Court. What was the current status of the Unidad Revolucionaria Nacional Guatemalteca (URNG)?

LAUREL FRANCIS, expert from Jamaica, said Guatemala's core report indicated that there were nearly 7 million people in poverty in Guatemala; of that total, 5 million were in "extreme poverty". He imagined that the greater majority of the indigenous peoples were subject to such extreme poverty. Human rights could not be accorded to a people if nearly 75 per cent of them were under the poverty level, of which 5 million were in extreme poverty. The right to life guarantees must be seen in that context. Was a national children's home being considered to deal with the problem of street children?

CHRISTINE CHANET, expert from France, asked about derogations under states of emergency and contradictions in the Constitution concerning those rights. The new Government had stated its determination to break with the past, she said, asking what legal measures were being contemplated for enforcement, including those on impunity. She was surprised to hear from the delegation that there was in the country a situation of impunity that was out of the Government's control. She sought information on legal and political measures being taken to regain that type of control. The military should now come under civilian jurisdiction. What means were available to ensure that the civil authority dealing with military cases would not be the victim of threats? she asked.

RAJSOOMER LALLAH, expert from Mauritius, noted the disparity between the report and other information coming to the Committee on the situation of human rights in Guatemala. The Covenant was designed to apply to all kinds of countries, including those coming out of a revolution, and contained provisions to deal with such situations. The report did not contain a brief history of what had happened in recent years. The report stated that no women or children had been executed in Guatemala. "And we know they were", although not under the law. He reiterated the requests of the expert from France for precise information on legal and administrative measures being taken.

Lord JOHN MARK ALEXANDER COLVILLE, expert from the United Kingdom, asked about activities of forensic experts who were exhuming the bodies of people killed a few years ago. He had information about two cases in which the victims had been identified. Had the Government been able to compare their names with those contained in the lists of disappeared persons?

FRANCISCO JOSE AGUILAR URBINA, expert from Costa Rica and Committee Chairman, said the core document indicates that human rights conventions and treaties ratified by Guatemala take precedence over domestic law. Guatemala's Constitution says the same thing. The word "law" can be translated as both "ley" and "derecho", which differed in meaning. That could result in some confusion. The core document also stated that opposition by the people was

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legitimate. What did that mean? Did it mean that anyone who opposed abuses by public officials, even through the use of armed force, was legitimate?

Who determined what action was legitimate? The core document, throughout, referred to publications aimed at disseminating information on human rights. It also stated that some four fifths of the indigenous population was illiterate. Did that not indicate some contradiction? Were any other means being used to disseminate human rights information?

Response by Guatemala

VINCENT ARRANZ SANZ, Chairman of the Presidential Human Rights Committee of Guatemala, said no one could defend the death of street urchins, the massacres of 1982, the grinding poverty, and the lack of education and drinking water. Policies must now be enacted to address those problems in the shortest possible time.

He said questions had been raised regarding the Central American Court of Justice. His Foreign Ministry had informed him that Guatemala was not a party to the statute of the Court. Guatemala's Congress had adopted the Optional Protocol of the Covenant on 14 March. A 15-day waiting period was required before it came into effect.

It was true, as the United Nations Human Rights Verification Mission in Guatemala (MINUGUA) had concluded, that serious human rights violations had been perpetrated and had not been punished, he said. However, MINUGUA stated that those violations could not be said to have resulted from any government policy. In certain instances, there was a failure to do something because one could not do it. However, both the Government and the URNG had taken positive steps, according to MINUGUA. Guatemala was heading down the right road.

The process of cleansing the security forces, both civilian and military, was a fundamental step, to which the Government was fully committed, he said. It would not be an easy task. The process of expanding the police force and providing it with proper training and equipment was also essential. The Presidential Committee was working out a plan of action to address those needs, with the assistance of various liaison bodies.

It was necessary to restore a fellowship of non-confrontation, of an absence of clashes, he said. "We have to rescue people from that atmosphere" of confrontation and begin a process of nation-wide reconciliation. That profoundly difficult job would require economic and social development, since poverty was an obvious breeding ground for violence. Profoundly rooted attitudes must be transformed.

To address the question of the impunity of offenders, the Ministry of the Interior would be strengthened, he continued. Its organic structure must

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be changed, from top to bottom. The administrative and security forces within the Ministry of Justice must be entirely restructured, along with the entire criminal and penal process. The culture of fear -- affecting judges, witnesses and prosecutors -- was also a problem. They must be protected through actual laws with "bite", laws which provided real security.

No special pride of place must be given to anyone under the law, he said. No one would be given such privileges. That would be demonstrated in the measures to reform the military.

The peace talks, which began with initial contacts in 1987, had indeed been lengthy, he said. In 1994, the issues were grouped under specific items and the major issues had now been basically resolved. Agreement had been reached on such questions as resettlement and the rights of indigenous peoples. The causes of the conflict were now being addressed, focusing on social and economic factors and the agrarian situation. Issues now to be resolved included the strengthening of civil authority, the functioning of the army, the reintegration of the URNG, and relevant constitutional reforms.

Issues concerning the Civil Self-Defence Patrols, he said, were among those on the negotiating table. The Verification Mission had been very firm that no new patrols should be set up. Not all Civil Patrols had been bad, although it was true that there had been abuses and excesses. It was not fair to say that the patrols were preventing returns. A problem existed on the other side as well; Patrol members were affected by returnees who recognized them. That was what was creating the conflict.

Warrants had been issued against several persons, he said, adding that it was well known that they had not been implemented. Citing several cases, he said those persons did not belong to one specific group. There was general impunity, not only of army officers. Guatemala was a small country and the impunity issue was not an easy matter. The Government was determined to proceed with the policy of reincorporation of Patrol members although it was aware that it would not be easy.

Replying to the question on low turnout in the last election, he said people were still disappointed with the failures of civilian governments in addressing the needs of the population. The new party formed by Rigoberta Menchu was now the third party in terms of representation in the Congress. The number of indigenous representatives though small, was growing. The Guatemalan Electoral Court was one of the few institutions which had enjoyed continued prestige since it was instituted. Another possible reason for the low turnout was that there had not been enough voting places throughout the country. In the second round, the difference between the rural and urban votes had been minimum.

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He said reports of human rights bodies were recognized by Guatemala as serious analyses, however harsh they were. Exhumations were one of the most painful of recent incidents, especially to Guatemalans. There was a need to turn minds around, make clear that human rights did not protect offenders; however, sometimes it was not felt that way. The police required a complete transformation, including in economic areas, such as salaries. The police force was not part of the military, he emphasized. The police force was totally civilian.

Torture cases were familiar, he said. He felt the country had overcome the problem, although those guilty were still free. There had been efforts to arrest those identified as torturers in cases mentioned in a brochure referred by some Committee members. There were programmes to deal with the problem of street children. Displaced children was even a more serious problems, as well as the problem of orphans. There were serious efforts being made to tackle the reasons which had engendered the street children problem.

It was possible to invoke conscientious objection under the law, he said. The case of the Xaman incident had been a tremendous tragedy for Guatemala. The immediate response of the then President was that it had been something unexpected and not the result of any policy. He had accepted the resignation of the Minister of Defence and had made available to justice the 25 members of the Patrol involved.

Measures to protect women's physical and emotional safety had to deal with traditional values, he said. Violence against women within the family was different from violence suffered in the street. Guatemala was party to an inter-American convention on violence against women which applied to the home and to outside the home. Provisions of the Constitution on adultery which discriminated against women had been modified.

DENNIS ALONZO MAZARIEGOS, Executive Director of the Presidential Committee, said the Commission had held seminars on matters relating to discrimination against women. Reforms had been made in the Labour Code, eliminating sex discrimination in the work arena, especially concerning job seekers. He cited several measures being taken to change situations which discriminated against women.

He said a person detained must immediately be notified of the reasons for his/her detention. Also judicial authorities were the only competent bodies to interrogate detainees. He read out several provisions of Guatemalan legislation on the rights of persons detained. Minors or juveniles cases had to be dealt with by competent authorities on minors.

He said the Constitution was the supreme law of the country and took precedence over any other law or treaty. As for what could arise should an individual invoke a treaty as taking precedence over domestic law, he said the

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Constitutional Court had the role of defending the Constitution. A case had come up concerning the constitutionality of an international instrument relating to Convention 169 of the International Labour Organisation (ILO). The Court had said the provisions of the ILO Convention should be approved and noted that the Constitution did not infringe on the rights stated in the Convention.

Magistrates should be elected by the Congress for a period of five years, he said, providing other details of the election procedures, including that 13 were elected from a list of 26. Judges were elected by the Supreme Court.

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